Explain the Difference:

DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
edited July 2008 in General
Explain the difference between the two following sentences:

I don't think a lot of people realize how awesome Pokémon is.

I think a lot of people don't realize how awesome Pokémon is.
«1

Comments

  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    The first sentence is emphasizing how few people realize how awesome Pokémon is, while the second sentence emphasizes how many people don't realize. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one depending on what aspect of the situation you're trying to highlight.
  • geokogeoko
    edited July 2008
    mario wrote: »
    The first sentence is emphasizing how few people realize how awesome Pokémon is, while the second sentence emphasizes how many people don't realize. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one depending on what aspect of the situation you're trying to highlight.

    what he said is true.

    the truth is what he said.
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    That's not how English works at all!

    Let's go step-by-step:
    What is the subject in each sentence? See the Wikipedia article on Subject to see the precise definition.
  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    I know what a sentence's subject is. The subject in both of your example sentences is "I". The predicate is "think" (or "don't think"). But that doesn't negate my analysis at all.

    I know how English works.
  • Mish42Mish42
    edited July 2008
    Best debate ever. I say the first sentence sounds better.
  • HamelinHamelin
    edited July 2008
    Except he didn't ask what sentence sounded better. You gotta pay attention.
  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    Jeff, you're one of those word guys. Back me up on this! The difference between the sentences is emphasis.
  • BehemothBehemoth
    edited July 2008
    I agree. I'm more interested in why john always asks questions just to tell people they're wrong no matter how they answer.
  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    I believe he genuinely thinks me to be incorrect. He just happens to be as wrong as wrong could be on that assertion.

    If he's just being contrary, on the other hand, then he deserves a kick in the teeth! That's right John, I said a kick in the teeth!
  • BehemothBehemoth
    edited July 2008
    Why would he even ask anyone to explain if he already knew what answer he wanted? He's just being contrary. I'd be happy to kick him on behalf of everybody.
  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    in the teeeeeeeeeth
  • BehemothBehemoth
    edited July 2008
    I'll start with the teeth.
  • illithid235illithid235
    edited July 2008
    I would say that the only difference between these sentences is where the negation rests, and as such it changes the emphasis of each sentence subtly.

    I really wish I had my Latin book with me, so I could look up the name of these structures. But if I remember correctly, the form in both sentences starts with, "I think/don't think that..." and I believe that's a structure in its own, I just can't remember what it's called. But it introduces the main part of the sentence, which is "People realize/don't realize how awesome Pokemon is."

    So, actually, John might be right... perhaps "I" isn't the subject, but "people" is. Now that I think about it, that sounds right...
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    No no, I is the subject.

    I ask these things I already know the answer to because I think of them during moments of enlightenment - most often in the shower - and I think it would behoove us all to have this knowledge. Behemoth, if you want to kick my teeth in just make sure you bring a baker's dozen of dudes with you.

    Now what am I doing in each sentence?
  • Blob-Of-EvilBlob-Of-Evil
    edited July 2008
    ...
  • X'o'LoreX'o'Lore
    edited July 2008
    You are "do" notting in one and thinking in the other.

    I don't know what answer you're looking for before you tell us your own complete thoughts on the matter.
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    Okay, yeah I guess I'm just pissing people off! In normal OB fashion let me tell you what's up!

    In the second sentence I am telling you what I think. This is a definite, concrete sentence. If you trust me, than you now know something solid about me. You can use this!

    In the first sentence I am telling you what I don't think. Well, that's fine, but it's not concrete. Imagine the thought "a lot of people realize how awesome Pokemon is." Are you thinking of that thought? Well I'm not thinking of it at all; that's the point of that sentence. While applications for this knowledge may still exist, it's even more useless than the concrete knowledge of what I do think.

    EDIT OF: Wow that's a horrible explanation.
  • illithid235illithid235
    edited July 2008
    Okay, researched it, we're both right, I think. They're both the subject. The first part of the sentence, "I think (that)..." is a dependent clause in the subjunctive mood, and the rest is an independent clause in the indicative mood.

    And as far as what you're doing, are you looking for an explanation of the grammar, or the meaning of each sentence?

    The first sentence can be rewritten, "I think few people realize how awesome Pokemon is."

    The second sentence can be rewritten, "I think many people do not realize how awesome Pokemon is."

    The sentences complement each other, to be sure, and each creates a gap that is filled by the other. But the focus of each sentence is slightly different. Slightly, not much. And I think that how you take the emphases in these sentences will possibly be different with each person.

    EDIT: I think, though, that in English, when you use the "don't think" construction listeners/readers generally assume that you do think the opposite of what follows. It still gives us basically the same insight into what you think.
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    illithid235 wrote: »
    I think, though, that in English, when you use the "don't think" construction listeners/readers generally assume that you do think the opposite of what follows. It still gives us basically the same insight into what you think.

    That's exactly the conception I'm fighting against. It's...it's CONFUSING!
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    I'm actually having this conversation with Mario via IM.

    It looks like (based on your responses) that the majority thought in English is as follows:
    "To not think" something is the same as "to think the negative."

    Obviously this switch-a-roo wouldn't work with everything. I don't believe anybody would agree that
    "To not like" is the same as "to like the negative."

    It looks to be one of those idiosyncrasies such as
    "Oxen" or "I could care less."

    Oxen I'm fine with, to be sure, but "I could care less" sure does grind my gears.
  • illithid235illithid235
    edited July 2008
    This is one of those little outskirts of language that I absolutely love thinking about. There's a school of literary criticism called Deconstruction that deals with this kind of stuff, and though it is mostly ridiculed, as most think it has little actual application in literary criticism, it is fascinating to think about.

    The gaps between thought and language are subtle, but with enough poking around you can find a LOT. We all think in thoughts. Our thoughts are perfect representations of what we're thinking. Then we introduce language, an external system that attempts to harness the wild variety of thoughts in our heads into a limited system of rules. Think what it would be like if we could just communicate in thoughts, in images and feelings. Don't you think it would eliminate a lot of misunderstandings in the world? Or perhaps it would just make new ones...

    Language isn't perfect, but it's really the best we've come up with, and it works really well until you start talking about really abstract stuff or get into the fine details of language mechanics. Fascinating. Thanks Jon, I love talking about this stuff.
  • BehemothBehemoth
    edited July 2008
    It's a very old concept too. It's one of the basics of Taoism. "[language can't be trusted]". We are trying to represent abstract ideas through a system that is, at any given point in time (though never long-lasting), concrete.

    John, I assume that you meant "I couldn't care less" to be an example of a phrase used that doesn't truly embody the meaning it represents. Please do not confuse folk etymology with true morphology. The phrase is "I couldn't care less". At this point in time, people are still screwing it up. this isn't to say that in 10 more years the standard phrase won't become, "I could care less" and simply lose all meaning. It just means that, though there are many popular idioms, some are seem as such before their time.
  • mariomario
    edited July 2008
    The problem is that John believes that "to not think" means that a person doesn't think anything at all, or to not have an opinion on the matter, whereas I feel it means "to think not". I'm not sure we'll be able to come to any consensus without one of us caving on our definition, and I absolutely feel that I am in the right. As far as I can tell, John wants to translate "I don't think" literally, in which case the sentence doesn't make any sense.

    Honestly John, you're the first person I've ever observed to have such an exclusive take on the definition. I feel kind of bad for you, because it clearly bothers you when you observe people using this phrasing in what you assume to be an incorrect manner.

    On the other hand, now I want to make a point of using the phrase all the time. I don't think you'll mind.
  • illithid235illithid235
    edited July 2008
    Of course, you're right, mario. You can find tons of phrases like that that you could interpret differently, and it would screw up the meaning. But language is just a tool that we use, and it fluctuates in meaning even when it doesn't fluctuate in structure. Now, when someone says, "I don't think," it really means, "I think not." There's not much else to be said. Just an imperfect translation of a very specific thought.
  • SerephelSerephel
    edited July 2008
    Yo quiero decir, 言語を話すこと 是很难. 我觉得 that language is 完全ではない。 Nosotoros somos diferentes, 还有你们听不懂我说的东西。 もしお前ら自分の言語がわからなかったら、how can you expect others who speak it as a second language to understand?
  • DrastickBlowDownDrastickBlowDown
    edited July 2008
    Wow. Really? After three years you guys haven't changed at all....

    Don't fight about words.

    FIGHT WITH WORDS!!!
  • QueenQuinlinQueenQuinlin
    edited July 2008
    *throws "word" at you* OWNED PERSON I DON'T KNOW!
  • DrastickBlowDownDrastickBlowDown
    edited July 2008
    AH GOD MY EYE. JESUS CHRIST.

    JESUS CHRIST.
  • DrLeopoldStrabismusDrLeopoldStrabismus
    edited July 2008
    We hugged once, man.
  • DrastickBlowDownDrastickBlowDown
    edited July 2008
    John, I still have a picture of you passed out on some guys couch on my cellphone camera.

    You ladykiller, you.

© Vanilla Keystone Theme 2023