Hey, out of curiosity, what game(s) is everyone currently playing?
Right now I'm running through Shadow of the Colossus again, and starting Fallout... I'm thinking that after I finish Shadow (which will happen very soon, the game is like 3 hours long once you've gone through it once) I'll start a Dark Cloud 2 file and keep up with that until I get bored of it.
As a dude going to school to create video games on the art side of the fence I'm almost offended by some of the ideas here (almost, I know they aren't cracks at my people). I can say with some very extreme experience that some of the work put in to making image planes alone for some of the games out there nowadays is done with more heart, soul, and effort than some of that new age art crap people get paid millions to do ("it's a black fly on the snow" no, jackass, it's a whitewashed canvas with a black dot). I look at games like God of War, Half Life 2, Gears of War, any Final Fantasy game in the past 10 years... And I can point out the individual pieces of art in many scenes and truly respect the work and effort put into the games. Is that not fundamentally what makes art so great? Sure it's an opinion question, and yes I know, everyone hates opinion questions, but enticing the mind into thinking outside it's own comfortable corner of insanity strikes me as one quality explination of the usefulness of art.
I'd also like to ask whether or not movies can be considered art. They're very similarly made, and in fact it could take far longer and far more effort to make many of the video games out there. I'd say that to consider one art and the other not would be a disservice to artists of all forms.
It's an interesting discussion though, for shorez.
Well, I'm not completely sure who almost offended you, so I'll just say that I agree without knowing I agreed before, video games are extraordinarily complex, and all the little bits and pieces of them work toward making them art. Environment, sound, physics, storyline, character development, the list goes on and on. And while I do think that those individual little pieces can be art as well, I would say it's a different form of art, like a different medium.
I guess you might be able to divide art up into two groups.... sensory art... might be the name for one of them. This is where that landscape would fall, because the sheer beauty of this creation might take your breath away. A painting would also fall into this category, and music, and... cinematography? Perhaps.
And then the other group... literary? Narrative? These are the aspects of a work that don't necessarily impact your senses, but impact your intellect. So a beautifully realized, haunting storyline or a painfully accurate statement would fit in this category.
Of course, these two categories can intertwine.. you can look at a painting and be awed at the skill of the artist, the beauty of the colors and how they work together, and simultaneously realize that the artist has juxtaposed two symbolic images and, through that juxtaposition, said something very compelling.
This does relate to the topic above, and here's how: I think a wholly artistic game combines both of these...as you said, it will have a lot of little (comparatively) elements that contribute to the sensory appreciation of the player, and at the same time it will have an amazing impact on the intellect or the emotions by involving the player in the decisions or consequences of the storyline.
As a lit major, I kinda tend to focus more on the literary/narrative/intellectual side of works, and I might overlook the sensory side a bit. But I still appreciate it whenever I can.
And to your second question, I think that movies undoubtedly can be art. They can appeal to multiple senses at once, and they can contain both groups of artistic devices. And yes, I also agree that to overlook one is a disservice to all. Just because some forms have had centuries to grow doesn't mean they're the ideal vessel for artistic expression. It just means that the other media need time to mature.
I tend to steer towards games with more of the sensory appeal, but some games really get me when it comes to story. One of these is the Zelda series, though they may have no obvious connection with each other (besides the obvious ones like the Oracle games or Ocarina and Majora's Mask) or any compelling complex story the shear amount of possibility is great.
Seriously, read a few Zelda theories and you start seeing some pretty crazy connections in game.
I don't doubt it in the least. I have to admit that a lot of my artistic... I don't know the word, feelings I guess... are mainly based on technical aspects. I love the way art turns out as much as the next guy, but how it got there is what really blows my mind. I can usually figure out a lot of stuff, especially now that I've gone to school for it, so if I'm clueless there's a strong respect and deep appreciation for what was done, moreso than if I can figure it out instantly.
A lot of people think of things like science and math as far away from art as possible, but when you look at them just right they certainly hit what I call art on the head.
That one that was posted about Majora's Mask a while ago was pretty amazing. There's a lot of depth in that game I never realized existed. I always liked Majora's Mask a lot... the atmosphere is just so much more fascinating to me than the other games.
And Twilight Princess was great, but I remember that it was dampened a little for me when I learned that people ghosted by the Twilight could be returned to their old lives easily.
I know it's a very common video game trope to allow for that to happen, but.. I dunno. When I first saw them ghosty like that, the first thing that came to my mind was that it would be amazing to have to make a hard choice... I thought that maybe the Twilight dissolved their bodies, leaving behind confused, attached spirits. I knew that the Twilight had to be removed, and I thought that maybe their souls would dissipate and you would remove them from the world completely. Unfortunate, but necessary.
I love bittersweet moments like that, and I thought it was just a little too easy to have everything reverse itself to normal and have you stereotypically save the day.
Majora's Mask's side stories had a few bittersweet endings (it should go without saying that a post mentioning the end of Majora's Mask might contain spoilers). Anju and Kafei may have gotten married, but Kafei stayed in child form. I recall that being a rather striking moment in a video game, where not everything was perfectly happily ever after.
I don't really think the Zelda storylines are anything that great. They're fun, and they're entertaining, but I have never been moved emotionally by one. The music, atmosphere, and gameplay are all really great (horseback sword fight on Twilight Princess is one of top favorite gaming experiences), don't get me wrong, but the storylines are lackluster at best (admittedly, I have not played Majora's Mask or Windwalker).
I was shocked when Raziel found out he was the Soul Reaver. I got goosebumps when Algus yelled "Animals have no god!" to Miralda. I was angry and pissed off when Kefka killed all of those espers and instantly turned them into magicite in Mobliz. I was moved when Galuf sacrificed himself to protect his friends. Don't even get me started on Crono's sacrifice. And the Crono/Marle balloon into the sky ending was beautiful and romantic.
Hey, out of curiosity, what game(s) is everyone currently playing?
Right now I'm running through Shadow of the Colossus again, and starting Fallout... I'm thinking that after I finish Shadow (which will happen very soon, the game is like 3 hours long once you've gone through it once) I'll start a Dark Cloud 2 file and keep up with that until I get bored of it.
I'm playing Rogue Galaxy (a pretty awesome action/RPG by the Dark Cloud guys) and Nibiru: Age of Secrets (a serviceable but unremarkable adventure game.)
I should get the new Penumbra game one of these days. It looks pretty awesome.
I don't really think the Zelda storylines are anything that great. They're fun, and they're entertaining, but I have never been moved emotionally by one. The music, atmosphere, and gameplay are all really great (horseback sword fight on Twilight Princess is one of top favorite gaming experiences), don't get me wrong, but the storylines are lackluster at best (admittedly, I have not played Majora's Mask or Windwalker).
Am I to assume you haven't played Link's Awakening?
I have always looked at it with interest, and I remember seeing it for like 20 bucks new somewhere and considering it... damn. I should have gone for it. Maybe I'll continue my search.
And in response to Serephel... those are all extremely moving moments, without a doubt.
BUT.
They could have been just as moving if they were part of a movie, or graphic novel, or book, I think. Those games really don't involve the player much in their awesome storylines. You are just kinda dragged along with it all. Except possibly Chrono Trigger, branching storyline/endings is definitely a feature of gaming that could be used to make it wholly artistic.
I've been playing Bioshock whenever I'm at my boyfriend's computer, I think it's a really interesting story line. Not very in depth, and I dunno if it's my ADD during video games, but having to listen and explore at the same time doesn't do well for me.
Ocarina of Time's story line had me really interested, as well as Majora's Mask... but eh, that was a long time ago, and really I think I've grown into liking books a lot more. I'm currently at the end of Atlas Shrugged and I'm loving loving the philosophy, but I dunno how good my literary tastes are, haha. I'm one of the few people I know who loved the book Crime and Punishment, and most people think I'm crazy when I say I enjoy reading John Steinbeck. Books have much more influence on me than video games, although I do think that games with a good story line can seriously pose as an art form. For people like my brother, who never pick up a book in their freetime and find it torture to have to read for school, video games are a great way to learn different perspectives. It's an important thing!
I remember a prof telling me that the only reason that Ayn Rand's books aren't considered a huge part of the literary canon is because her philosophy is very conservative and a lot of academics are liberal. Otherwise, I think she's considered to be a fine philosopher and writer. I haven't read any of her stuff, but that's what I've heard.
And yeah, Bioshock and Ayn Rand must have met in a bookstore and had a long conversation once. (That's a good thing).
But, to pay homage to Noobity's statements, make sure, when you're playing the game, to look around you and enjoy the gorgeous scenery. That's one game that I think the developers put a lot of time into, putting little details everywhere that really help flesh out the world.
And I think that video games could potentially function just like graphic novels sometimes do... they can be a gateway to an appreciation of literary works.
I think that might be kind of the trade off. If you are given more character freedom, the story tends to be less involving, because the more involving it is, the less freedom you are given with your character.
I'm then drawn to say, Morrowind or Oblivion. I played Oblivion for a while, but I stopped after getting 20 or so hours into the game, because it just got too hard to be fun. This was another example of planning your character out perfectly. The leveling system would only give certain stats boosts if you used skills during that level that boosted those stats; and even then you only got to pick three stats. I did the careful planning/leveling thing for a while, but it just took out all the fun of roleplaying, as I was more confined than anything else. Sure, I could just adjust the difficulty bar in the menu, or just add a cheat/mod to offset it, but that doesn't feel the same.
Morrowind is apparently better in this regard, though I haven't played it enough yet; I've only gotten past the intro.
Even as you roll up a good character, you are free to do whatever you wish: get involved with the thieves' guild, the dark brotherhood, mages guild, fighter's guild, etc, although if you play enough, you can typically do all four with the same character
At this point in time I feel that games aren't created well enough and I don't think that many gamers are creative enough that free range gaming is really as viable as we'd like it to be. Games like morrowind and oblivion do lose out a bit in story as far as I'm concerned. I never personally got into them and was bored nearly to tears at points in the games because I couldn't figure out anything especially fun to do. We as a general people need to be guided by some narrative force (consider it a need for a god figure, religious or non) and for a while we need our games to give us direction. I'm not saying there are people who couldn't work around these kinds of games (hell, look at DnD) but it's just not for the average person.
As far as art is concerned, this is the joy of storytelling. Ever do those "Choose your own adventure" books as a kid? Look at them now that you have a basic grasp of good storytelling, no matter what you do you're going to find plot holes, and lacking story development. To make something that open ended you sacrifice so much in planned storyline. As much as I love the dionysian method of writing, it never pans out as well as a deliberate idea.
And yeah, Bioshock and Ayn Rand must have met in a bookstore and had a long conversation once. (That's a good thing).
Haha, I've definitely seen some similarities, with some of the posters displayed in the game and for what it fights against.
If game developers actually did start focusing on creating types of graphic novels as their ultimate goal, that would be fantastic. Who knows... maybe the next generation might be assigned to play a video game in order to convey a particular mindset. It's a stretch, but hey! There was a group assignment that my english teacher assigned last year that had to watch and analyze the movie Apocalypse Now in order to compare it to Conrad's Heart of Darkness; who knows what the next generation could bring!
Dang.. I wish I could take the classes of the next generation! That sounds awesome.
I remember a prof telling me that the only reason that Ayn Rand's books aren't considered a huge part of the literary canon is because her philosophy is very conservative and a lot of academics are liberal. Otherwise, I think she's considered to be a fine philosopher and writer. I haven't read any of her stuff, but that's what I've heard.
No, trust me, they're pretty shitty books. The Fountainhead is essentially about various strawmen who crumple in awe in the sight of unbridled self-interested capitalist demigods. And borderline rape.
Yeah, I've gotten the impression that Ayn Rand is way into male dominance when it comes to sex. Crazy sex... But I just laughed at all of those parts; I think Ayn Rand was crazy herself, BUT I think people should still read the books to at least be AWARE of the philosophy. I believe it's an important thing to think about!
Like I said before, I really really like Atlas Shrugged. I was under the impression that the Fountainhead was very similar, but I haven't read it, so I don't know. Maybe Jake hates everything about her, I can see how people would disagree with her. I disagree on some points, but just the fact that I hadn't really considered the other philosophy that unbridled self-interested capitalist demigods should be the rulers of society is what makes it interesting. I think she wrote the book FOR people like me.
Oh, certainly. I think they're important to read at some point, as some people really love them -- but I think that some just want an objective moral validation to their own selfish impulses. Think Brave New World with Henry Ford as God, shown in a positive light.
EDIT: to stay slightly on topic, has anyone played the new Penny Arcade video game? I've only tried the demo, and it is very, very pretty.
Comments
EDIT: now with more fake linkage!
Right now I'm running through Shadow of the Colossus again, and starting Fallout... I'm thinking that after I finish Shadow (which will happen very soon, the game is like 3 hours long once you've gone through it once) I'll start a Dark Cloud 2 file and keep up with that until I get bored of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse
If any of you still want to look it up after that, you are beyond reasoning.
I'd also like to ask whether or not movies can be considered art. They're very similarly made, and in fact it could take far longer and far more effort to make many of the video games out there. I'd say that to consider one art and the other not would be a disservice to artists of all forms.
It's an interesting discussion though, for shorez.
I guess you might be able to divide art up into two groups.... sensory art... might be the name for one of them. This is where that landscape would fall, because the sheer beauty of this creation might take your breath away. A painting would also fall into this category, and music, and... cinematography? Perhaps.
And then the other group... literary? Narrative? These are the aspects of a work that don't necessarily impact your senses, but impact your intellect. So a beautifully realized, haunting storyline or a painfully accurate statement would fit in this category.
Of course, these two categories can intertwine.. you can look at a painting and be awed at the skill of the artist, the beauty of the colors and how they work together, and simultaneously realize that the artist has juxtaposed two symbolic images and, through that juxtaposition, said something very compelling.
This does relate to the topic above, and here's how: I think a wholly artistic game combines both of these...as you said, it will have a lot of little (comparatively) elements that contribute to the sensory appreciation of the player, and at the same time it will have an amazing impact on the intellect or the emotions by involving the player in the decisions or consequences of the storyline.
As a lit major, I kinda tend to focus more on the literary/narrative/intellectual side of works, and I might overlook the sensory side a bit. But I still appreciate it whenever I can.
And to your second question, I think that movies undoubtedly can be art. They can appeal to multiple senses at once, and they can contain both groups of artistic devices. And yes, I also agree that to overlook one is a disservice to all. Just because some forms have had centuries to grow doesn't mean they're the ideal vessel for artistic expression. It just means that the other media need time to mature.
Seriously, read a few Zelda theories and you start seeing some pretty crazy connections in game.
A lot of people think of things like science and math as far away from art as possible, but when you look at them just right they certainly hit what I call art on the head.
And Twilight Princess was great, but I remember that it was dampened a little for me when I learned that people ghosted by the Twilight could be returned to their old lives easily.
I know it's a very common video game trope to allow for that to happen, but.. I dunno. When I first saw them ghosty like that, the first thing that came to my mind was that it would be amazing to have to make a hard choice... I thought that maybe the Twilight dissolved their bodies, leaving behind confused, attached spirits. I knew that the Twilight had to be removed, and I thought that maybe their souls would dissipate and you would remove them from the world completely. Unfortunate, but necessary.
I love bittersweet moments like that, and I thought it was just a little too easy to have everything reverse itself to normal and have you stereotypically save the day.
I was shocked when Raziel found out he was the Soul Reaver. I got goosebumps when Algus yelled "Animals have no god!" to Miralda. I was angry and pissed off when Kefka killed all of those espers and instantly turned them into magicite in Mobliz. I was moved when Galuf sacrificed himself to protect his friends. Don't even get me started on Crono's sacrifice. And the Crono/Marle balloon into the sky ending was beautiful and romantic.
OMG GANONDORF KIDNAPED ZELDA LOL.
I should get the new Penumbra game one of these days. It looks pretty awesome. Am I to assume you haven't played Link's Awakening?
I have always looked at it with interest, and I remember seeing it for like 20 bucks new somewhere and considering it... damn. I should have gone for it. Maybe I'll continue my search.
And in response to Serephel... those are all extremely moving moments, without a doubt.
BUT.
They could have been just as moving if they were part of a movie, or graphic novel, or book, I think. Those games really don't involve the player much in their awesome storylines. You are just kinda dragged along with it all. Except possibly Chrono Trigger, branching storyline/endings is definitely a feature of gaming that could be used to make it wholly artistic.
Ocarina of Time's story line had me really interested, as well as Majora's Mask... but eh, that was a long time ago, and really I think I've grown into liking books a lot more. I'm currently at the end of Atlas Shrugged and I'm loving loving the philosophy, but I dunno how good my literary tastes are, haha. I'm one of the few people I know who loved the book Crime and Punishment, and most people think I'm crazy when I say I enjoy reading John Steinbeck. Books have much more influence on me than video games, although I do think that games with a good story line can seriously pose as an art form. For people like my brother, who never pick up a book in their freetime and find it torture to have to read for school, video games are a great way to learn different perspectives. It's an important thing!
And yeah, Bioshock and Ayn Rand must have met in a bookstore and had a long conversation once. (That's a good thing).
But, to pay homage to Noobity's statements, make sure, when you're playing the game, to look around you and enjoy the gorgeous scenery. That's one game that I think the developers put a lot of time into, putting little details everywhere that really help flesh out the world.
And I think that video games could potentially function just like graphic novels sometimes do... they can be a gateway to an appreciation of literary works.
I'm then drawn to say, Morrowind or Oblivion. I played Oblivion for a while, but I stopped after getting 20 or so hours into the game, because it just got too hard to be fun. This was another example of planning your character out perfectly. The leveling system would only give certain stats boosts if you used skills during that level that boosted those stats; and even then you only got to pick three stats. I did the careful planning/leveling thing for a while, but it just took out all the fun of roleplaying, as I was more confined than anything else. Sure, I could just adjust the difficulty bar in the menu, or just add a cheat/mod to offset it, but that doesn't feel the same.
Morrowind is apparently better in this regard, though I haven't played it enough yet; I've only gotten past the intro.
Even as you roll up a good character, you are free to do whatever you wish: get involved with the thieves' guild, the dark brotherhood, mages guild, fighter's guild, etc, although if you play enough, you can typically do all four with the same character
As far as art is concerned, this is the joy of storytelling. Ever do those "Choose your own adventure" books as a kid? Look at them now that you have a basic grasp of good storytelling, no matter what you do you're going to find plot holes, and lacking story development. To make something that open ended you sacrifice so much in planned storyline. As much as I love the dionysian method of writing, it never pans out as well as a deliberate idea.
If game developers actually did start focusing on creating types of graphic novels as their ultimate goal, that would be fantastic. Who knows... maybe the next generation might be assigned to play a video game in order to convey a particular mindset. It's a stretch, but hey! There was a group assignment that my english teacher assigned last year that had to watch and analyze the movie Apocalypse Now in order to compare it to Conrad's Heart of Darkness; who knows what the next generation could bring!
Dang.. I wish I could take the classes of the next generation! That sounds awesome.
No, trust me, they're pretty shitty books. The Fountainhead is essentially about various strawmen who crumple in awe in the sight of unbridled self-interested capitalist demigods. And borderline rape.
Like I said before, I really really like Atlas Shrugged. I was under the impression that the Fountainhead was very similar, but I haven't read it, so I don't know. Maybe Jake hates everything about her, I can see how people would disagree with her. I disagree on some points, but just the fact that I hadn't really considered the other philosophy that unbridled self-interested capitalist demigods should be the rulers of society is what makes it interesting. I think she wrote the book FOR people like me.
EDIT: to stay slightly on topic, has anyone played the new Penny Arcade video game? I've only tried the demo, and it is very, very pretty.